9-11 Truth is a cult: random thoughts on Group Think in the age of online activism
I posted in an earlier blog entry about my outcast status from the social networking site Myspace.
Social networking is great, don’t get me wrong. I’m all for it. Lord knows we could all use friends… even if they are only online and we will probably never meet 99% of them in real life.
But my experience with Myspace was less about friendship and felt more like some kind of lab observation. You get to watch how people behave, what sets them off, what makes them tick, etc…
And you get to watch them network… And network… And network… Adding friends on Myspace seems akin to passing notes in grade school: Will you be my best friend? Check YES or NO.
And then what happens? In my own personal experience, not much. Most “friends” on Myspace you will never get any closer to than when you hit the APPROVE button on their friendship request.
Which makes it all the more strange when you encounter a group that seems so tight knit that everything they do and say looks and sounds like it is coming out of the same brain and central nervous system.
I’m thinking of the Myspace contingent of 9-11 Truth. In the forums they always seem to speak with the exact same turns of phrase, the same talking points, over and over again. That is to be expected from any group with the same basic goal and agenda, but 9-11 Truthers really have to be admired for the single-mindedness of their message. If life were a crappy episode of Star Trek The Next Generation then 9-11 Truthers would be The Borg and their goal would be that you would be assimilated.
I’m all for Freedom of Speech. You won’t find me censoring people’s opinions here (if I ever get any comments that is). As a general rule I try to tolerate almost everybody else’s opinion, and I respect your right to believe whatever it is you want to believe. But the “debate” around the events of 9-11 is so shrill, so desperately dysfunctional, that there seems to be almost no middle ground whatsoever.
I actually don’t believe that is true. I think there is a huge middle ground of people who just don’t know for sure how it happened and refuse to get sucked into the cesspool of discussion that passes for discourse on the subject. What’s the point? When the “debate” is dominated on both sides by ideologues with no intention of budging from their battle positions, can people be blamed for rejecting the entire mess in disgust?
My advice to 9-11 Truthers: Work on some fresh material.
The stock phrases are getting you nowhere fast. “9-11 was an inside job”… “wake up sheeple”… “the way the towers came down defies the laws of physics”… “the buildings collapsed at free-fall speed”…
… I saw those same exact statements over and over again from different people. Each of them put forth their arguments like it was the first time their audience was hearing The True Word. They were going forth and preaching the gospel of 9-11 Truth. For a time in the forums there were multiple drive-by postings telling people to go see the new version of Loose Change. Some 9-11 Truth group had obviously told their followers to go forth and multiple.
They will tell you they have blown the conspiracy wide open. That it has been laid bare and exposed. They act like it is common knowledge that “9-11 was an inside job”.
Yet if the case was so clear cut wouldn’t somebody have done something about it by now? No, they’ll tell you. Because the media is controlled by the government and they are suppressing the truth from coming out. But honestly, I can’t remember a time when alternative opinion and journalism was easier to come by. So wouldn’t some journalist with integrity have taken up the cause and shown the ironclad proof to the world so these people could finally be held accountable… And please, please, please don’t give me the name of some “reporter” for the American Free Press.
I don’t know. I’m just one guy with one opinion. I don’t claim to know The Truth the way the people in 9-11 Truth claim to know it.
All I know is that 9-11 Truth looks and sounds like a cult. Be careful if they offer you any Kool-Aid.
DisInformation Station 
Somehow I’m not sure what you expect. I mean, are they supposed to come up with new conspiracy theories about how the towers collapsed every year? The reason you hear these theories so often is probably because they are the most logical ones…. as far as logic can go of course. Lets just hope they dropped the one dollar folding trick thing, THAT was really stupid.
usernametakenistaken - July 3, 2008 at 6:31 am |
I expect nothing. I just get tired of people churning out 9-11 Truth propaganda like it is original thought. People seem to think that believing 9-11 was an inside job makes them interesting or original… that it somehow proves they think for themselves and can’t have the wool pulled over their eyes… But really it just looks like a different fashion preference to me.
texas buddha - July 3, 2008 at 7:08 am |
I get sick of the deniers … these are the people that “can’t handle the truth.”
“Yes Tommy….people are really THAT evil…they’re guilty of murder and treason”.. period.
Lochgelly - September 9, 2009 at 4:11 am |
There is really nothing worth denying so far. 9-11 Truth jumped the shark when they decided to allow the controlled demolition theories.
I’m not an unreasonable person. I can envision the possibility that:
A.) our government had foreknowledge of the attacks and did not prevent them.
B.) The terrorists involved came from CIA trained Afghanistan freedom fighters from the soviet war in the 1980s.
C.) the 9-11 attacks were used as a pretext to go into Iraq based on manufactured intel.
Based on any of those I think you could make a solid case that the Bush administration was guilty of war crimes and even, as you put it, treason.
But all of that is miles away from proving that 9-11 was a “inside job”. I tend to think that it is more likly they failed to connect the dots and then used the attacks as an excuse to run amuck.
That is where I think 9-11 truth fails. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence if you want to read it that way, but the supposed case is always made from a predetermined ideological argument. There is never any actual debate and even less real evidence.
But somebody like me gets called a shill (and all manner of other names) for daring to want 9-11 Truth to make an actual case that doesn’t sound like science fiction and come with an ominous soundtrack to lead you by your nose to the conclusion they demand you come to. Real critical thought is not welcome. You can only nod your head in agreement. Anything else and you are labeled a shill, idiot, etc.
In most crime investigations the answer is usually the most obvious one. Almost never is it the incredibly convoluted conspiracy. I have a much easier time believing that the Bush Administration dropped the ball on the intel and let the shit happen and then ran wild in the aftermath than I do believing that they actually did the whole thing themselves. I can see them being incompetent morons more easily than I can see them being mastermind evil geniuses.
But to be honest this is old news and I’ve stopped following the debate. Maybe I missed the smoking gun that PROVES 9-11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB.
texas buddha - September 9, 2009 at 7:21 am
If you check out democide on wikipedia, statistics show that ‘governments’ have killed at least 260 million people in the last 100 years.
Now clearly this shows that tyranny and terrorism, are statistically hundreds of times more likely to come from ‘governments’ rather than boogie man al-CIAda from under the bed.
Now this track record from history shows that people that are at the least sane, learn about history and become at least a little aware of the world around them so they can act accordingly. This logic you talk about is incorrect, since many reporters have discussed problems with the official lies, including coverage by C-Span, international press coverage and more. What shocks me is that for some reason someone cant spend 2 hours of your time to see clear evidence such as from the film ‘911 mysteries’, the Architects and Engineers for 911 truth, and hundreds of expert witnesses, testimony and combined evidence. Instead you attack a grassroots movement that is standing up for rights and freedoms and for the community. There are 20,500 articles on 911 on the infowars search site documenting evidence higher than the buildings. Check out the evidence, or stay ignorant at your own risk.
infinitus - July 15, 2008 at 12:59 am |
Funny you should mention logic…
Don’t you find it a tad illogical (and more than a little intellectually dishonest) to compare the deaths caused by all the world governments in the last 100 years to the deaths caused by a non-governmental terrorist group that has only existed since 1988? Kudos though for managing to sneak in the reference to “al-CIAda”… You’re a few cyber-points closer to earning that Alex Jones Infowars Illuminati New World Order De-Coder Ring! Too bad you missed your chance to say “wake up sheeple” and call me a “shill”, because that ring would already be in the mail to you if you had.
And besides, Governments don’t kill people. People kill people.
The problem with Alex Jones, Infowars, and 9-11 Truth is that it is all agenda-driven. Telling me the number of articles Infowars has posted does nothing for me if I think they are full of shit. The last time I checked you didn’t have to be an architect or an engineer to belong to Architects and Engineers for 911 truth. You just needed an email address and a burning desire to nod your head along in agreement with whatever the “truth movement” tells you.
9-11 Truth should call themselves 9-11 Innuendo because their best evidence is circumstantial and depends on the group to shame people into agreement with them.
Truthers want to have it both ways. They’ll tell you that the mainstream media is bullshit propaganda and that people like Alex Jones are the only ones out there brave and patriotic enough to tell you the truth. But Jones & Co. often heavily source their articles directly from the mainstream media and then add their own Chicken Little the-sky-is-falling spin to it. Well, if the mainstream media is bullshit propaganda and Alex Jones is just adding his spin to it, doesn’t that make Infowars bullshit propaganda with extra spin?
Thinking for yourself does not include checking with Alex Jones first.
texas buddha - July 15, 2008 at 2:56 am |
Very interesting blog, i have added it to my fovourites, greetings
Ebay hot items - July 24, 2008 at 6:23 am |
9/11 was an inside job. Wake up. The Government lies. The war on terror and the war on drugs is a fairy tale. Stop watching mainstream news and put a stop to the lies and the New World Order.
Truth is Gold - August 20, 2008 at 1:02 pm |
Google WTC7. 911=Inside Job
9/11 truth now - August 20, 2008 at 1:12 pm |
You guys are such original thinkers. Two comments almost at once… and speaking with the same mind. It’s uncanny.
Although, leaving me dummy messages that agree with each other is a poor way of making a point on the subject… It sort of proves what I was saying about “the movement” and the way they spout the same message over and over and depend upon their numbers to impress and or shame people into agreeing with them.
Weird that I got 18 blog hits today on this old ass blog entry… Almost like somebody sent a Myspace message to their buddies about it.
Quick! Assemble the troops!
Battle on Truth Warriors!
texas buddha - August 20, 2008 at 3:35 pm |
What new things do we need to come up with, minds are like parachutes they work better when they are open. I suggest whoever wrote this article google david ray griffin, jesse ventura, false flag terrorism, 911 press for truth, and wtc7. Oh we are all a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists. Yet countless architects engineers, physicist, pilots, ex-military personell have come forward to question the 911 commision report. I can only lead you to water but i cannot make you drink.
craig mckerley - August 28, 2008 at 4:21 am |
You mean you can only lead me to the kool-aid, but you can’t make me drink.
Thing about Google is that it is a search engine, not a truth detector. I suggest you Google “Bigfoot did 9-11” and see what I mean. Just because it shows up in a Google search doesn’t mean much.
And my mind is open. If I thought I had seen actual evidence for the “inside job” theory I would say so. The best evidence of a conspiracy is circumstantial.
texas buddha - August 28, 2008 at 4:33 am |
What you are missing here, quiet evidently, is that there are questions unanswered, and a lot of them.
Does it mean that when I search “The official 9/11 story is true” it is?
Stop talking in gibberish and trying to be a de-bunker, thanks.
Your opinion does not matter, you can not answer the questions asked.
How the hell it can be seen as a cult is beyond me. People want genuine answers not half measures. The FACT that more dollar was spent on the bill Clinton / Monica Lewinsky investigation speaks volumes. Whereas you do not.
Would you agree actions speak louder than words?
Debunker - September 13, 2008 at 4:20 pm |
Hey buddy, I missed nothing.
Everybody wants answers. Sure. Ask your questions all day. I never hear them though. Instead I hear a bunch of declarative statements about a conspiracy without any real solid proof. Just innuendo, circumstance, and conjecture. Oh, that and lots of outright lies.
I’m all for government accountability. Investigate the shit out of it. Bill and Monica’s being investigated over a blowjob is outrageous I agree… But that hardly advances whatever point you thought you were making.
As for the google search thing… You’re proving my point doofus. That’s what I said to the guy that told me to do a google search. Learn to read.
People want “genuine answers” you say, but the conspiracy theories I’ve seen start out with an assumption that the conspiracy theory is true and then seeks to mold the “evidence” to fit the idea.
people who want answers don’t start with a conclusion and work their way backwards to the evidence. Look at just about any crime scene and 99.9% of the time the answer is going to be the most obvious one that the evidence points to. Only on TV shows do the criminals turn out to be diabolical masterminds that elaborately frame some innocent fall guy.
The 9-11 Truth cult is a propaganda war for your mind. If they have your mind they have power over you and the decisions you make. What more is there really? In his less guarded moments Alex Jones hints at his Christian faith and if you look around the internet long enough you’ll find a healthy contingent of weirdo christians that preach about the New World Order. It’s an article of faith. It’s a religion.
But believe it or not I’m an open-minded guy. If I ever see compelling evidence that 9-11 was an inside job I’ll let you know.
texas buddha - September 13, 2008 at 6:24 pm |
You may think I require someone to proof read my findings for me but I don’t.
Why have the questions fallen on deaf ears?
Why mention Alex Jones? I Certainly never.
To say you believe nothing that is based on fact, which everything is, and that is the reason you don’t believe scares me. I am not American and have no biased opinion. I look at and watch the many people who disagree with your opinion, listen to there points and can’t for the life of me dispute it.
To say there is not compelling evidence is down right misinformed.
Write a book about the attacks and not mention everything that happened on the day? C’mon how would it ever have put an end to all the talk? That was the intention, but rocks were left unturned. People can’t help but feel; for a reason. It would be blind faith in a government which has never played fair. (Bushs’ election for example)
You can’t deny the corruption that bleeds through society.
You haven’t said anything factual, mere character assasination and accusations with no facts. Lets see these facts. 9/11 Facts were all over the news for months after it. The facts were in your face. It would be madness to even start to comment on them all here, its clear what you see you just don’t want to believe, not that you base it on facts.
I admire people with faith like yourself, my gran was a christian, her faith kept her strong during her last weeks, on the earth, from cancer. She refused treatment because she knew in her own mind she was in safe hands.
I would not be thinking what I was thinking if I hadn’t read/watched the many “experts” conclusions. Even a court does not need to have the perfect truth. Beyond reasonable doubt is enough as i’m sure you know. Its about evidence (which there is) and the final jury or judges decision.
Debunker - September 13, 2008 at 11:09 pm |
“You haven’t said anything factual, mere character assasination and accusations with no facts.”
That’s classic coming from a conspiracy theorist. 9-11 Truth ’s modus-operandi is character assasination and accusations with no facts. Give me your best evidence. Make your case. All I see you doing here is stating and restating how obvious the “truth” is to you.
I mention Alex Jones because he’s one of the more prominent faces of the “Truth Movement” that I am calling a cult. Sort of the topic of the entire blog entry.
You’ve cherry-picked the “facts” and chosen the folks you choose to believe. Nothing I say to you will change your mind because you’re a true believer.
Me on the other hand, I’ve invited you to convince me and told you that I have an open mind to the possibility. I don’t put it outside the realm of the possible for such horrible things to happen.
I get a lot of people who tell me that I’m blind… That I’m ignorant… That it’s plain as day. None of them ever make the case though. They just state their faith like you.
I have never seen what I consider to be compelling evidence for the conspiracy and that is coming from a guy that started out believing that 9-11 might have indeed been an “inside job”. The more I looked into it the less convinced I became.
…Now if you want to talk about Bush being a piece of shit and using the event as a pretext to invade Iraq then sure, I can buy that. And I’d love to have seen the notes of Dick Cheney’s secret energy summit and find out that he and his buddies were carving up Iraq’s oil supply months before the slow, dumb, false intel drumbeat to war… So you see, I am not above entertaining a little conspiracy theory of my own now and then. But a whole shitload of bad policy and shitty decision making does not “prove” that 9-11 was an inside job.
So instead of just telling me how wrong I am, try to show me how right you are with some of these cold hard facts that you say are all on your side.
Don’t chicken out and hide behind excuses like, “It would be madness to even start to comment on them all here”. Make your case.
texas buddha - September 14, 2008 at 12:20 am |
… By the way, fake insulting email addresses like “fuckyou@youcunt.com” really help to make your case for you and show whoever you choose to debate that you are a credible person worthy of respect.
texas buddha - September 14, 2008 at 12:23 am |
The email was not an intentional dig at you. I don’t see why I must give my email. It certainly doesn’t take anything away from me, as it is not I who is making the claims more qualified people are. What I am saying is I believe the whole story is not what it has been made out to be.
My point is, you have seen more than likely everything I have seen. I have stated a fact, the commission report is far from the complete story.
You read what you want from my reply and make up a profile of who I am. When you don’t have all the facts about me to do it.
What about the fact that trained emergency workers heard explosives going off while they were working? Traces of thermite waste was found. WTC 7 the third steel frame building (ever) to collapse due to fire even tho it wasn’t hit by a plane. The plane that was “crashed” into the ground that dissapeared into the ground, the coroner that was called asked why he had been as there was no wreckage/bodys.
All of the constitutional laws changed at the stroke of a pen to help prevent further attacks, the foundation on which America was built is now a distant past never to be the same again. History is the proof that people need, it is not the first time false flag tactics have been used to gain political Carte Blanche. There is no smoke without fire. If it was as clear cut as you say then we would all be on the same page but clearly we are not and that is because of all the questions that have not been answered. Not because we don’t believe the ones that have been.
Debunker - September 14, 2008 at 7:38 am |
How am I a conspiracy theorist? I have made no claims. By The Way!
Debunker - September 14, 2008 at 7:52 am |
Ah yes… The thermite/molten metal theory as put forward by former American Free Press “reporter” and known anti-semite crackpot Christopher Bollyn. Can you name the scientist that discovered this thermite sample? Can you cite the laboratory that verified the sample? Can you point to a single source other than Bollyn for this story?
Is that really your best evidence that you want to lead off with?
Come on man! The whole thing is about what you desperately want to believe I guess.
The “trained emergency workers” who “heard explosives” is a pretty slanted interpretation of a well known bit of news footage. They were trained to save people, not tell what explosives sound like… And for that matter, how does a person know something is an explosive from the sound it makes? They said it sounded “like” explosions. That is about as close to scientific evidence as you are going to get with that. Under the circumstances with planes flying into buildings and the buildings collapsing I bet it did sound like explosions. Proof of an inside job though? Do you want to tell me the planes were holograms now?
Riddle me this: If the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition who planted the explosives, how, and when? Didn’t anybody notice all these spooky looking Matrix-type government agents sneaking explosives into the sub-structure of the place in advance? Or was it all part of the vast conspiracy when they originally had the thing built and they just always planned to blow it up one day?
WTC 7 was heavily damaged by falling debris and fire prior to its collapse. This has been well documented in any number of places if you were interested in reading anything besides stuff that tells you what you already want to hear. There are lots of photos of the building showing the extensive damage to the structure complete with raging fires gutting the building’s broken and open facade. Now maybe you want to quote the Jewish owner of the towers telling them to “pull it”…
That America reacted with regressive legislation to “protect” us is not really evidence of anything but an overreaction to the event. It proves nothing about 9-11 one way or the other. Likewise, that there have been false flag operations in the past is not viable evidence that 9-11 was a false flag operation. That is like saying that frogs exist, therefore all animals with four legs are frogs. The conclusion does not follow the evidence.
And finally, you ask how it is that you have been labeled here as a conspiracy theorist… You’re on a blog about 9-11 Truth defending the “inside job” thermite controlled demolition theory and you have to ask? You say you’ve made no claims. Maybe you should read your comments again.
But thanks for the laughs.
texas buddha - September 14, 2008 at 10:35 am |
What claims have I made then? I recite what I have read/watched.
Building seven was not damaged heavily?? Or do you just believe what you want to?
Just because you say that other people say one thing does not make it truth either. You quote names and people the same as the other bench does. You chose to believe one side, me the other. I did not come up with any evidence others did. I am not a conspiracy theorist but possibly a conspiracy believer at best!
I’m making an assumption here, but possibly JUST POSSIBLE the trained emergency workers are indeed familiar with explosives. Im more than sure they have heard explosions before in there career. To say that they are trained to “save” people is a vague statement at best. You have said nothing to me that would make me change my mind.
Actually I go back on what I said, you obviously haven’t watched or read everything I have.
Its known that the trade centers for a few weeks leading up to the attacks had floors closed and also had power outages. Also there should have been a lot more people inside but many floors of certain offices were “on holiday” that day.
Fighter jets weren’t scrambled because of the exact same “drills” going on with them, there was confusion! Just so happens that on the exact same day in London as there attacks 7/7 an emergency action company was doing a “drill” about exact same attacks on the same stations! (Coincidence of course)
I wont be replying any more because its clear you are simply a debunker.
Thanks for the poor insight you thought you would give me tho.
Debunker - September 15, 2008 at 12:11 am |
No wait I shall, Only ONE person came up with the crazy Thermite idea did he?
You make me laugh more, gotta admit!
Debunker - September 15, 2008 at 12:23 am |
Since you seem incapable of answering a simple direct question, the scientist is Steven E. Jones, but the thermite theory is strictly that. As far as I can see from the reading I have done it is based on observation of video and photo evidence alone and nowhere have I seen discussion of a single actual sample of thermite recovered from the scene. In other words, they are pointing at pictures and saying, “See? Doesn’t that just LOOK suspicious?”… And much of that already questionable “research” has already been debunked… Several of the photos that purportedly show beams cut by thermite have since been shown to have been cut during the removal of debris after the disaster.
As for your other evidence of emergency drills going on at the same time, that is circumstantial at best and proves nothing.
I have to assume that you are trying to be careful when you say that “people” did not show up to work at the WTC that day… I think you are referencing the wild rumor about 4000 Jews not showing up for work that day. This is such a laughably anti-semitic conspiracy theory that it is not even worth mentioning except to point out how fucking weak your argument is if you are actually still trying to use it. In fact, five Israeli citizens and estimates of 400-500 Jewish victims were killed that day.
texas buddha - September 15, 2008 at 2:12 am |
You made the “jew” comment not I.
You assumed I meant jewish, I never.
“Having tested pieces of hardened molten metal from the twin towers, Jones found that they were composed primarily of iron, not structural steel. This is positive physical evidence of an aluminothermic reaction, more commonly known as Thermite.”
Obviously he NEVER got any samples because he is a liar…..
Debunker - September 15, 2008 at 4:08 am |
If you are not talking about the rumor about “4000 jews” that supposedly never showed up for work that day, then what people ARE you talking about? You didn’t mention them because you knew if you did you’d be easily dismissed as a jew-baiting crackpot. If I am wrong then please source an article that details these “people” that did not show up for work.
And again, your pull quote is from the very first google search result on the topic and was written by Christopher Bollyn who is an established racist and jew-baiting nutjob. He has about as much journalistic credibility as the Weekly World News. All of his articles seem to trace some vast conspiracy back to Israel and The Jews. Bollyn has appeared on former KKK member David Duke’s radio show. The American Free Press which he wrote many of his articles for links to another website called The Barnes Review which specializes in holocaust denial and revisionist history that celebrates the ideas of Adolf Hilter. For a time, until people like me brought attention to the fact, the American Free Press and The Barnes Review shared the exact same P.O. Box number mailing address in Washington D.C.
If you insist on using such sources as your “evidence” then don’t expect people to take you seriously.
texas buddha - September 15, 2008 at 6:28 am |
Bollyn wrote it because Professor Jones showed him, not the other way around. It is Jones who makes the claims not Bollyn, just because he may have wrote about it does not make everyone linked to it corrupt or a conspiracy theorist mate.
The rumor you heard is not the “rumor” I heard on Jews alone. Stop arguing about something I ain’t or have ever mentioned, thanks. To say only Jews died that day and 4000 of them haha; the death toll is around 300 MAX!
“Why did so many people, from San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown to many employees of companies in the World Trade Center who failed to come to work that day, know in advance that something bad was going to happen on Sept. 11, 2001? ”
Another quote, debunk that kind sir….
All of the fatalities in the attacks were civilians except for 55 military personnel killed at the Pentagon. More than 90 countries lost citizens in the attacks on the World Trade Center.
That’s what I believe.
Now, Jones makes the claims NOT Bollyn ok? Try again
Debunker - September 15, 2008 at 12:58 pm |
3000, sorry
Debunker - September 15, 2008 at 12:59 pm |
Your new quote is from John Kaminski who is another crackpot obsessed with the Jews being responsible for all the evil in the world. You’re a fucking joke using these shitheads for your sources.
I can’t debunk incomplete and run-on sentences that make no sense. That is to say that I have no idea what you are even talking about anymore because you express yourself so poorly. You seem barely able to read for comprehension, and then you can hardly write a complete thought, so between the two disabilities I get the feeling that further discussion is pointless.
Again, cite a source for the “people” that did not show up to work that day if you want to prove that you weren’t actually referencing the “4000 Jews skipped work on 9-11” myth. Try to come up with a source that isn’t from a rabid anti-semite this time.
Whatever you do, please keep posting comments because you’re like a textbook case for what is wrong with the “Truth Movement”.
I’m starting to think you might be a neo-nazi with mental retardation.
You do a serious disservice to people with honest questions about the events of that day by polluting the debate with bullshit like this.
texas buddha - September 15, 2008 at 2:27 pm |
Attacking me because you cant disprove anything except coming up with your “crackpot” case.
Just because you and others think people are crazy, doesn’t mean they are.
I simply believe that your government is speaking with a forked tongue, Knows a lot more than is letting on and is actually trying to change America for the worse by lying to you all.
You have no proof where your coming from, other than other people say he’s crazy so he is. That is your argument, nothing else.
If you want to start F’n we can, but I think your getting kinda warm inside, shame you have to get all aggressive and personal. But then if you think it makes you like right then, fine. Debate with someone who cares if you swear at them. Not me I care not. Goodbye.
Debunker - September 15, 2008 at 3:28 pm |
I’m not attacking you. You’re the one that decided to use a couple of neo-nazi scumbags as your best evidence for the conspiracy. You undermined your own case by choosing to go that route. There is nothing scholarly or journalistic about Bollyn or Kaminski. They are hate-monger propagandists.
there are plenty of details about 9-11 that you could have used that call the official story into question and are perfectly legitimate, but you thought you’d go with a couple ultra-right-wing nationalist editorial opinion writers instead.
Again, I notice you failed to defend your “people skipped work at the WTC but I wasn’t talking about the 4000 Jews myth” argument with a legitimate source.
Funny you should get all butt-hurt about a little profanity when you started out by feeding me a fake email address like fuckyou@youcunt.com… But then I guess like everything else with you guys, it is only an “attack” when somebody else does it to you. Now all of a sudden it’s a shame I’m getting all aggressive and personal. But you starting fresh out the gate with hidden insults in your posts is just fine. Oh yeah, you said the email address was not an intentional dig at me. Sure thing bro.
You’re pitiful.
texas buddha - September 15, 2008 at 10:55 pm |
Go and drive your 4×4 shooting yer gun out the window shouting Yeee Haaarrrrr mate, that’s where I am now.
Name calling is for the school play ground mate, not a forum.
Debunker - September 16, 2008 at 5:30 am |
Like I already pointed out, you were name calling in your very first comment to me so maybe you should skip the false indignation.
This is now my fourth invitation to you to come up with an actual source that proves that “people” did not come into work at the WTC on 9-11… This source you use must also prove that you weren’t actually alluding to the patently false “4000 jews” rumor that you say you were not referring to… And this time it can’t come from a neo-nazi opinion piece.
If you fail to source the story this time I will henceforth delete your sorry ass comments from my blog without bothering to reply to you again.
texas buddha - September 16, 2008 at 12:40 pm |
You are one scary dude. People who don’t do research, but who grab a bullhorn instead, always are.
Jock Doubleday - November 2, 2008 at 6:25 am |
What research didn’t I do?… And how would you know if I didn’t do it?
It is funny that a 9-11 truther would accuse anybody of using a bullhorn without doing research.
But I’m used to empty insults from condescending strangers.
texas buddha - November 2, 2008 at 10:06 am |
… Oh, and a blog is hardly a bullhorn.
texas buddha - November 2, 2008 at 10:08 am |
Anybody brave enough to follow Jock Doubleday’s name to his website will be treated to a bad “poem” rip-off of Gil Scott Herron’s the Revolution Will Not Be Televised. In it he let’s you know in verse how little he thinks of his fellow human beings and eventually gets to the meat of the matter and warns about people being forcible micro-chipped and put into FEMA concentration camps… Under his poem is a portrait of the author bathed in unnatural blue light and looking like he has gone off his prescribed medication a tad too long… If you scroll down the page there are posted all the conspiracy theory’s greatest hits videos including Zeitgeist and Alex Jones’ Terrorstorm.
But me, I’m the scary one.
texas buddha - November 2, 2008 at 10:38 am |
Sorry, I just had to comment on this texas buddha fool. Gentlemen, pay no attention to him, there are plenty of WAY more credible people listed at 911truth_warrior_in_mom’s_basement.com who have legitimate unanswered questions about 9/11. These people, like me, are more interested in facts and science over conspiracy. However, conspiracies do happen, its just a matter of whether it was 19 hijackers with boxcutters and OBL in a cave or something else. Either one involves conspiracy. The general anti-war movement has failed to bring down the war machine, hopefully 9/11 Truth can. No cult required. Peace.
Paul - December 3, 2008 at 3:08 pm |
Good luck with bringing down the war machine Paul.
But I’m afraid 9-11 Truth may not help much. They’re too busy getting celebrity endorsements of big stars like Charlie Sheen and passing out copies of Loose Change to professional wrestlers they run into on the street.
texas buddha - December 3, 2008 at 11:40 pm |
Did you ever notice how people in a cult always seem to be in denial that they are in a cult? Meanwhile from the outside looking in, everybody else can see they have joined a cult, but they continue to fail to see it.
texas buddha - December 3, 2008 at 11:46 pm |
BillT…
Hey there, just stopped in….
Definitely love google, great post. Keep up the good work. - December 24, 2008 at 3:46 pm |
I must say that you provide genuine, quality information. Thanks for this!
BTW, dpn’t you think your blog needs a better wordpress template?
Applebees - February 28, 2009 at 7:29 pm |
It is obvious that the 9/11 Truth movement has been hi-jacked in part be people who want to discredit the movement. It happens in every single movement. There are always some inside ops going on… To believe that people seeking the truth and asking questions are cult-like means that you too have duped by the hi-jackers of the movement.
Since when is questioning things cult-like?!?! I guess if the TV tells you it is, it is….
mee - April 22, 2009 at 7:22 am |
Sure. If it makes 9-11 Truth look like a bunch of morons then it must be secret government ops meant to discredit the movement… Because Lord knows that 9-11 Truth couldn’t weed out the silly shit and repudiate the idiots and control their own message, because they’re helpless dweebs and losers with no control over their own content. They’re victims of a vast evil government conspiracy to make them look stupid.
There is a difference between questioning the “official version” of events – which is valid – and spinning absurd far-flung theories and mindlessly repeating your own group’s propaganda – which is cult-like. If you can’t see the difference then you’ve drunk too much Truth flavored kool-aid. There is evidence and then there is speculation. There is scientific reality and there is science fiction. When you ignore facts so you can continue to hold onto your personal agenda you leave the idea of truth behind.
But you’re late to the party. 9-11 Truth is so-o-o-o 2007. You guys should have moved on to predicting FEMA concentration camps and using numerology to “prove” Obama is the Antichrist by now. Please check your email for the official tinfoil-hatter’s newsletter. You’re way behind schedule.
texas buddha - April 22, 2009 at 4:05 pm |
lol budda your a funny guy…
NateinCOcomegetsome - May 11, 2009 at 11:30 am |
You really need to wake up bro! Cant you see your being lied to by the Jewish owned corporate government mind control machine? I mean, its so obvious that 911 was an Inside Job! Your probably being paid by the CIA/IRS/New World Order/Illuminati/Noam Chomsky/Howard Zinn Special OPs unit to perpetuate this propaganda on the people of the country so the elites can dominate the world and put us all in FEMA concentration camps and impose forced abortions on all our women and sell our children to Chinese sweat shops. Its so obvious cuz ninjas came in in the middle of the night and planted a highly potent form of nano-thermite that’s so top secret no one knows it exists. And i mean, just look at the footage of the building collapse and its totally obvious that it was a controlled demolition because my cousin works for a demolition company and he told me that when a building collapses it falls down and stuff and the twin towers fell down too so there’s no other explanation for what could have happened other than the Jewish CIA ninjas sneaking in with the thermite. As for airplanes hitting the towers at full speed slicing them in half while spewing tons of jet fuel and debris removing the fireproofing of all the support beams then fires weakening the steel to the point of failure, that’s just fantasy talk.If you believe what you saw on tv that day and don’t think those planes weren’t totally digitally imposed by the government to make you think that’s what happened your totally and idiot and your just in denial that your government would kill its own people. I mean , look at history man. Its filled with instances of governments all over the world with false flag operations to drag its people into war so therefore it must logically follow that that is exactly what happened here!!!Wake up people!………………………AND CUT………..SORRY MAN I COULDN’T RESIST I WAS TOTALLY KIDDING ABOUT ALL THIS . IF YOU COULDN’T TELL ALREADY THAT I WAS JOKING ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING I WOULDN’T BLAME YOU CUZ THIS IS ESSENTIALLY HOW BAD THESE 911 “TRUTHERS” CAN BE.THESE WERE ACTUAL ARGUMENTS I’VE HAD TO DEAL WITH ! BUDDHA YOUR GRASP OF LOGIC AND REASON IS A VERY REFRESHING THING TO FIND ON THE INTERWEBS THESE DAYS. MAKES ME FEEL GOOD TO SEE SOMEONE PUT THESE NUT JOBS IN THEIR PLACE. I TOO WAS REAL SKEPTICAL OF THE “OFFICIAL STORY” AT FIRST AND I WENT INTO MY OWN RESEARCH WITH A HEALTHY DISTRUST FOR GOVERNMENT/ MEDIA AND AN OPEN MIND . I IMMEDIATELY I FOUND THAT THE MORE I READ THE MORE THE EVIDENCE JUST WASN’T THERE FOR THIS KIND OF CONSPIRACY SHIT. I SHARE YOUR FRUSTRATION WITH THE CULT/GROUP THINK BULLSHIT. AND YET LIKE YOU , IF SOMEONE HAS SOME ACTUAL REAL FACT BASED SCIENTIFIC “NEW” EVIDENCE I’M ALL EARS. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK MAN. (sorry for all caps , just wanted to be clear this part is my real voice)
quentin - November 23, 2009 at 9:22 pm |
Wow. I’m a big fan, Texas Buddha. And a little flabbergasted at your energy. I gave up arguing with fanactical believers some time ago (regardless of topic). I’m on to more sanguine and useful pursuits – like issuing personal bonds with a maturity date of Dec 22 2012.
Jared - November 24, 2009 at 3:52 pm |
Fanatics are the least satisfying people to try to debate for sure. No real point to it. But for awhile there it seemed that 9-11 Truth was on some kind of roll just because of their immunity to reason and their ability to spam social networking forums with sheer numbers.
I sense that the entire Truth debate has cooled somewhat. I think at the core it was largely a radical offshoot of anti-Bush, anti-Big Government sentiment. Now that Bush has failed to fulfill the “Dictator for Life” prophecy that so many CTers claimed was coming, the rabid anti-New World Order crowd has switched gears and started concentrating on how Obama is a socialist and how health care reform is a pretext to Government run “death panels”.
You could almost call it progress.
Thanks for the compliments. It is a refreshing change from constantly being called a mindless shill.
texas buddha - November 24, 2009 at 5:37 pm |
The laws of physics don’t give a damn about cults.
Let’s just face a few simple facts.
Skyscrapers MUST hold themselves up. They must also sway in the wind. The people who design skyscrapers MUST figure out how much steel and how much concrete they are going to put on every level before they even dig the hole for the foundation.
After EIGHT YEARS why don’t we have a table specifying the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE that were on every level of WTCs 1&2? The NIST report does not even specify the TOTAL for the concrete. The total for the steel is in three places. So even if the planes did it that 10,000 page report is CRAP!
Conspiracies are irrelevant. The Truth Movement should be marching on all of the engineering schools in the country.
Watch that Purdue simulation. If a 150 ton airliner crashes near the top of a skyscraper at 440 mph isn’t the building going to sway? Didn’t the survivors report the building “moving like a wave”? So why do the core columns in the Purdue video remain perfectly still as the plane comes in?
That is the trouble with computer simulations. If they are good, they are very good. But if they have a defect either accidental or deliberate they can be REALLY STUPID once you figure out the flaws.
The distributions of steel and concrete are going to affect the sway of a skyscraper whether it is from the wind or an airliner.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
How much does one complete floor assembly weigh?
You know those square donut floor slabs? They were 205 ft square with a rectangular hole for the core. There was a steel rebar mesh embedded in the concrete which was poured onto corrugated steel pans which were supported by 35 and 60 foot trusses. There has been talk about those things pancaking on each other for years.
But has anyone ever said what the whole thing weighed? Why haven’t we seen that A LOT in EIGHT YEARS? The concrete alone is easy to compute, about 601 tons. But the concrete could not be separated from the entire assembly, the upper knuckles of the trusses were embedded into the concrete. So what did the whole thing weigh and why haven’t the EXPERTS been mentioning that A LOT in EIGHT YEARS?
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
So why hasn’t Richard Gage and his buddies produced a table with the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE that were on every level of the WTC? How much computing power do they have now, compared to the early 1960s when the buildings were designed? I asked Gage about that in May of 2008 at Chicago Circle Campus and he got a surprised look on his face and gave me this LAME excuse about the NIST not releasing accurate blueprints. Gravity hasn’t changed since the 1960s. They should be able to come up with some reasonable numbers.
psikeyhackr - January 10, 2010 at 2:47 pm |
If you took the same effort you’ve displayed in your comment on my measly, insignificant, and years-old blog post, and applied that energy towards developing interpersonal social skills you’d have a girlfriend in no time.
Maybe nobody has mentioned the exact weights of the various component part of the building because IT DOESN’T MEAN SHIT IN THE LARGER SCHEME OF THINGS. You should ask Richard Gage what the WTC janitors had for breakfast that day too. I’ll bet he’ll get a surprised look on his face when you ask him that one as well. He’ll probably tell you he has no idea what they ate, but we know better than that. It’s all part of the cover-up.
I know that unemployment is at 10% nationwide right now, but that is no excuse for you to wallow in a dead-end obsession. Get up. Put some pants on. Not the sweatpants with the food stains on the crotch. Tuck in a button up shirt that isn’t too wrinkled. Now go out and get a fucking job. At least fill out a few applications.
The answer to the vast conspiracy isn’t on YouTube, and knowing the exact weight of the floors of the building isn’t going to solve the thing for you either.
You’ll be amazed what a sense of purpose and self-worth you’ll get from cashing a regular paycheck and moving out of mom and dad’s basement.
texas buddha - January 10, 2010 at 3:24 pm |
So you didn’t notice that I said that conspiracies are irrelevant.
But then some people can’t figure out what information is important in analyzing a grade school physics problem.
Have you seen that video where Harvard graduates can’t explain the seasons?
That is AMERICA!
psikeyhackr - February 1, 2010 at 4:52 am |
If you are referring to where you said “Conspiracies are irrelevant” before launching into your psuedo-scientific rant, then rest assured I didn’t miss it. I just don’t think you have any real argument. You raise questions, imply dark secrets exist, and use circular logic to negate your first poorly stated ideas.
I mean, really, what exactly are you saying? That the laws of physics are so obviously in your favor that it is staggering that nobody else but you and your Mountain Dew drinking pothead buddies can seem to grasp it?… and it follows that?… What exactly? I don’t see the point. So you alone hold the key to this obvious, yet unsolved, mystery. So what’s the hold up. Expose the entire thing. Lay bare the lies!
What grade school curriculum are you talking about that offers Physics by the way?
Your YouTube postings are neither here nor there. It is no real surprise that “educated” people can easily be tripped up with basic questions. Most people specialize in their area of study and ignore everything else. It proves nothing (except maybe that you spend your time trolling the internet looking for evidence that allows you to feel superior to other people).
You think I ignored your point about how conspiracies are irrelevant. I notice you failed to acknowledge my points about you getting a job and moving out of mom and dad’s house.
Your video on YouTube called Gravitational Collapse onto Sequential Supports is hilarious stuff by the way. You always know you’re onto something big when fellow 9-11 Truthers leave you glowing comments about the great work you’re doing.
Sadly, life in the echo-chamber tends to insulate a person from just how silly they look to everybody else.
texas buddha - February 1, 2010 at 7:29 am |
You don’t know what a pseudo-scientific rant is. You can’t even find the total weight of a floor assembly and the NIST report never specifies the total for the concrete in the towers. You can download the NCSTAR1 report and try to find it any time you like. I already did. It ain’t there. And no one discussing the subject gives a number from any post 9/11 official source.
The Port Authority brochure says 425.000 cubic yards but that would be more than 300,000 tons per building. But the Port Authority also says 200,000 tons of steel which the NIST agrees with. So what is the story with the concrete after EIGHT YEARS?
LOL
psikeyhackr - February 1, 2010 at 11:56 am |
I thought the whole point of your comment was that NOBODY can find the weight measurements you think are so important because they don’t exist anywhere. So why are you challenging me to try to find them?
It’s a pseudo-scientific rant because you don’t have any evidence of anything, nor do you state any real theory. You merely imply that it is so obvious a grade schooler could do the math if only you had the correct numbers to plug into your equation. But nowhere have I seen you plainly state just what this equation would be or what it would supposedly prove. So spit it out if it is so simple. What grade school level math do you propose to use, and what do you think you will prove by using it?
My guess is that really you’re just implying a cover-up of information and that is all you’ve got for “evidence” of anything. That or you are just plain confused.
Either way you’re failing to convince anybody other than people who were already card-carrying members of 9-11 Truth, and they already agreed with you to start with so the bar was set pretty low. You are using the standard tactics of 9-11 Truthers: trying to make people agree with you by making it sound like anybody who doesn’t must be too stupid to understand what is right in front of their face.
But if I’m wrong and you’ve got the goods please spell it out: Tell me what math equation you’re hoping to plug the weight of the floors into, what physical law it will either follow or not follow, and what you think it proves.
I’m betting you can’t answer these simple questions. It is much easier to just imply that anybody who can’t see what you are talking about is an idiot.
texas buddha - February 2, 2010 at 4:09 am |
You got kind of quiet there psikeyhacker. I guess it was a pseudo-scientific rant after all.
texas buddha - February 7, 2010 at 3:32 pm |
{{{ I thought the whole point of your comment was that NOBODY can find the weight measurements you think are so important because they don’t exist anywhere. So why are you challenging me to try to find them? }}}
Well if you can find them then obviously I’m talking bullshit.
But it has been EIGHT YEARS and if you can’t find them…
But then that raises the question of why you didn’t think to ask long ago.
Skyscrapers must hold themselves up. These kind of problems had to be solved many times long ago. The Empire State Building was 70 years old when the WTC was destroyed.
I have searched. I can’t find a table specifying the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level of any skyscraper. Gravity works the same way all over the planet.
psikeyhackr - February 8, 2010 at 12:05 am |
So, again, I guess I have to ask: What grade school math are you planning to plug the weights into? What law of physics will it either prove or disprove? You still have yet to plainly state just what you think these weight measurements mean. The mere absence of the data doesn’t say much except that you’ve failed to find it.
You made such a big show of saying over and over again how simple the whole thing is, I’m wondering why you are now failing to giving these simple answers.
To answer your question, I can’t find these measurements because I’m not bothering to look for them. I can’t speak to your own failure to turn up the information, but it is pretty ego-centric of you to assume that it must be an evil conspiracy rather than the fact that you haven’t looked in the right place yet. Which is more likely? That some secret government ops have gone and scrubbed the data from everywhere, or that you are maybe not as amazing at doing research as you seem to think you are?
Again, so you won’t miss it, how does knowing (or in this case – not knowing) the weights of the materials in the WTC solve the mystery? What does it supposedly prove?
texas buddha - February 8, 2010 at 1:08 am |
Again, I see you get quiet when I ask for specifics about all the simple math and physics you’re using to prove 9-11 was an inside job.
You mentioned gravity… Since Galileo observed that objects of different weights fall at the same rate of speed and acceleration, how does knowing the weights of any of the materials in the WTC matter? Gravity would act the same on the objects no matter what their weights.
Don’t bother to reply unless you bring your simple math and physics this time.
texas buddha - February 10, 2010 at 11:13 am |
{{{ Again, I see you get quiet when I ask for specifics about all the simple math and physics you’re using to prove 9-11 was an inside job. }}}
I haven’t been quite. I haven’t been here. It is pretty BORING.
I NEVER said anything about an INSIDE JOB. You propagandists need to bring up your BUZZ WORDS. I don’t give a damn who did it. I don’t give a damn why they did it. When did they PROVE that an airliner weighing less than 200 tons could destroy a skyscraper over 400,000 tons in less than 2 hours? How could they do that without telling us the distributions of steel and concrete?
This is a GRADE SCHOOL PHYSICS problem. But how do you do the grade school physics without the data to plug into the equations. It’s only been EIGHT YEARS. So why don’t we have a table specifying the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE that were on every level by now? Can’t you understand that information is necessary to design a skyscraper in the first place?
We are supposed to BELIEVE that the steel in the south tower could weaken in 54 minutes but we aren’t told the QUANTITY OF STEEL on each level in the vicinity of the impact.
Why don’t you try finding the total weight of a floor assembly, the square donut concrete slab plus the corrugated pans plus the 35 and 60 foot trusses? I downloaded the NCSTAR1 report 3 years ago. It’s not there.
How do you do physics without data? Why listen to experts if they won’t tell you the obviously important data?
You can try making a self-supporting structure collapse if you want. The washers and dowel cost less than $20. Grade school kids could do the test. Curious that our engineering schools that charge $100,000 for 4 years haven’t made an experiment that simple.
psikeyhackr - February 11, 2010 at 3:13 am |
Once again, a bunch of blowhard ranting without any evidence to support it. If this is a grade school level physics problem like you keep saying it is, then you should be able to cough up the equation you’re talking about using. Tell you what: plug in the letter “X” where the weight measurements would go.
I’m thinking you would have done this by now if you weren’t talking out your ass.
And your washer and dowel demonstration proves nothing beyond what happens to your washer and dowel model. There is ZERO correlation between your laughable model and the WTC.
I guess your best evidence for the WTC not being brought down by an airplane is that you’d never seen it happen before that day. That is pretty piss-poor logic to follow. Nobody died in car crashes before cars were invented either, but that fact doesn’t prove it is impossible to die in a car crash. Not having previously observed something doesn’t tell you shit about whether or not it is possible. That buildings are built to stand up under their own weight doesn’t mean they were built to withstand impacts from jet planes. One does not mean the other.
In short, and with apologies to Sarah Palin, your argument is fucking retarded. I am laughing my ass off at the mental image of you wasting 20 dollars on the supplies to build your weak sauce model that proves nothing aside from your own limited grasp of science.
texas buddha - February 11, 2010 at 4:00 am |
The equation is for conservation of momentum.
m1*v1+m2*v2=(m1+m2)*v3
What good is an equation without the data to plug in for the variables? We don’t know the tons of steel and concrete that were on every level of the towers. So how can the conservation of momentum equation be applied to a supposed gravitational collapse.
You seem to think the objective here is for me to prove to you that I am smart like I give a damn what you think. The fact that you haven’t been demanding to know the distributions of steel and concrete already settles the relevant question.
Why did you ever think an airliner weighing less than 200 tons could destroy a building weighing more than 400,000 tons in less than 2 hours and not wonder about the distribution of steel? The Empire State Building was completed 70 years before the WTC was destroyed. This ain’t rocket science.
psikeyhackr - February 12, 2010 at 1:23 am |
If I understand you (and I’m not sure I do) you are hoping to disprove the idea that the planes caused the towers collapse by using this equation to prove that the momentum of the planes hitting the tower would not convert into the momentum of the building collapse. Is that what you are trying to say?
Because I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody try to say that the momentum of the impact directly caused the collapse. Hence the time delay between impact and collapse. The collapse was brought on by structural failure due to the fire after impact. It is pretty obvious that the collapse starts from the impact zone and above.
You’re upset that I seem to want you to prove anything when you’re the one that showed up here lecturing me about how simple it is and how a grade schooler could understand it and how stupid everybody else is that doesn’t agree with you. Does it really surprise you that under such circumstances a person might want you to make your case? Welcome to the real world where loudmouth jackasses get asked for proof of their flawed theories.
And finally, you keep bringing up the Empire State Building’s age like that is some kind of ace in the hole for your proof. What does that have to do with anything? If you are going to bring up that building then you should mention the WW2 era plane impact it sustained without collapse (not that it proves your case), but the age of the structure is neither here nor there and your repeated use of that meaningless factoid makes you sound like an idiot.
But by all means waste another eight years of your life spinning your wheels on this subject.
texas buddha - February 12, 2010 at 3:59 am |
{{{ If I understand you (and I’m not sure I do) you are hoping to disprove the idea that the planes caused the towers collapse by using this equation to prove that the momentum of the planes hitting the tower would not convert into the momentum of the building collapse. Is that what you are trying to say? }}}
When was it PROVEN that an airliner weighing less than 200 TONS could totally destroy a building weighing more than 400,000 TONS in less than TWO HOURS?
Lots of people have just been BELIEVING THAT NONSENSE and aren’t smart enough to ask the OBVIOUS QUESTIONS.
Don’t skyscrapers have to hold themselves up? Don’t skyscrapers have to withstand the sheer forces of the wind? Don’t the designers of skyscrapers have to determine the distributions of steel and concrete befroe the even dig the hole for the foundation? So why don’t we have tables specifying the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE that were on every level of the WTC towers after EIGHT YEARS? Why can’t most people think to ask questions that obvious.
{{{ Because I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody try to say that the momentum of the impact directly caused the collapse. Hence the time delay between impact and collapse. The collapse was brought on by structural failure due to the fire after impact. It is pretty obvious that the collapse starts from the impact zone and above. }}}
I never said the impact caused the collapse. Can you read?
The impact did structural damage but it also deflected the building and started an oscillation. How can the energy that did structural damage be computed without calculating how much caused the deflection. And that energy cannot be computed without knowing the distribution of mass.
But distribution of mass obviously relates to distribution of steel. But how can you determin if a fire could weaken enough steel in less than an hour for the south tower if you don’t know the distribution of steel? So there are about FOUR DIFFERENT REASONS for needing to know the distributions of steel and other mass to analyze this physics problem. So until that information is known BELIEVING that an airliner could destroy one of those towers is utter nonsense.
BELIEF is a form of NOT THINKING.
The Empire State Building was completed 70 years before the WTC was destroyed. What kind of electronic computers did they have? This ain’t rocket science.
psikeyhackr - February 17, 2010 at 6:05 am |
Again, that buildings have to hold themselves up and deal with wind doesn’t mean they are designed to withstand the impact of jet airliners. You keep restating the same thing over and over again like if you say it enough times it will get less stupid. One thing does not equal the other. Pretending it does just makes you look like an idiot or a liar or both.
The weight of the plane versus the weight of the building is another pseudo-scientific non-factoid to keep bringing up. Just because the size and scale of the one is smaller than the other doesn’t mean much of anything if the supports of the building become compromised. At that point it is the building itself that is causing its own collapse as the area above the impact zone collapses downward.
If such a size and mass relationship meant anything at all then I guess people would be immune to bullets like Superman, and we’d have nothing to worry about from the AIDS virus. Knocking out one of the four legs on a chair wouldn’t matter in the least because the bulk of the chair would remain intact.
I don’t even know what you are trying to say with the “deflected the building” stuff. You’re full of crap is just about the only thing I’m sure of. I suppose according to your logic the planes should have bounced off the WTC like rubber balls.
So, again your very best evidence for anything is a lack of facts and figures to do the math you claim would prove your case. Not exactly a compelling argument dude. But maybe if you keep posting the age of the Empire State Building over and over again it will finally make your case for you.
Maybe not being able to prove anything for another eight years will look EVEN MORE convincing to your fellow 9-11 Truthers. Good luck!
texas buddha - February 17, 2010 at 7:20 am |
{{{ Again, that buildings have to hold themselves up and deal with wind doesn’t mean they are designed to withstand the impact of jet airliners. }}}
So why can’t you tell us the mass of steel and the mass of concrete that were on the 5 level where that planes hit on each building? People that BELIEVE things don’t need data RIGHT?
But to prove things data is required. It can’t be PROVEN that the planes could not do it but without data it has not been PROVEN that the planes could do it. You can’t even come up with the weight of a complete floor assembly.
The NIST admits that the south tower moved 12 inches at the 70th floor when the plane hit the south tower. That was 130 feet below the impact point. So the building moved less than 16 inches at the level of impact by 150 tons of airliner traveling at 550 mph. Since the formular for kinetic energy is:
Ke = 1.2 m v^2
that 550 mph velocity is SQUARED. That is a hell of a lot of energy but the building moved less than 16 inches and the NIST also admits that it simply oscillated for FOUR MINUTES afterward.
You just don’t understand what a skyscraper has to withstand from the wind and think a single airliner is so much greater. The building was 200 feet wide and 1360 feet tall. That is a hell of a lot of surface area to have to withstand a 100 mph wind. I have seen someone say the WTC towers took that 6 times in 28 years but I have not confirmed it. The specs say it was designed to sway 3 feet at the top in a 150 mph wind. The wind can blow for hours. The plane impact was over in 10 MINUTES.
How can a building designed to take the wind for hours at a time and do it year after year be taken out by a plane in less that 2 hours and then collapse straight down in less that double free fall time. And then you don’t want to know the distributions of steel and concrete in the towers.
Most of the people in this country remind me a Sgt. Schultz in Hogan’s Heroes.
I know nothing, NOTHING!
Can’t figure out the obvious. LOL
psikeyhackr - February 24, 2010 at 2:10 am |
I’m not a scientist – but it is perfectly obvious that neither are you.
You keep bringing up the wind speeds that these buildings were built to withstand like it IN ANY WAY COMPARES to the impact of an airplane. It doesn’t. You’re not even comparing apples and oranges. It is more like comparing apples and a truckload of cattle on the way to the slaughterhouse. There is no relationship between the two things whatsoever.
Let’s say the windows in my house can easily withstand wind gusts up to CAT 2 hurricane force winds… Now let’s say that my 6 year old kid tosses a baseball at the window. How is it that baseball manages to punch a hole in the window and break the glass? Does it somehow defy the laws of physics that such a thing could possibly happen? I mean, the windows can withstand CAT 2 hurricane force winds for crying out loud! Somebody call in a team of engineers to explain how such a thing could happen!
You look down your nose at people who might dare to believe airplanes and fire might have had something to do with the collapse of the WTC in the absence of data that proves it. Yet you obviously believe you have somehow proved that is not true IN THE ABSENCE OF THE EXACT SAME DATA.
Where is your proof? From where I sit the airplane and fire theory has a whole lot more weight than anything else by virtue of the fact that there seemed to be an observable cause and effect relationship between the two events: Let me summarize the chain of events for you. For 30 years the towers stood up just fine. Then one day they were hit by airplanes, burned, and collapsed. The airplanes hit the towers, there was a fire that spread to the floors above the impact zone, and shortly thereafter the towers collapsed starting from the impact zone and above. So the airplanes and fire theory has one major thing going for it that you lack. People could see it happen right in front of their fucking eyeballs.
So, granting you a huge benefit of the doubt, and assuming that this obviously observed cause and effect relationship had nothing to do with the towers coming down, I have to ask, what did cause them to fall? Because questioning the “official story” is fine and dandy but it sort of begs the question of what actually happened if everything else is a lie. And you’ve got nothing. Your argument’s main strength seems to be that people are stupid for believing their own eyes. One might just as easily argue that you are stupid for ignoring them.
I have a follow up question for conspiracy theorists everywhere. Why exactly is it so important for the towers to have collapsed at all? Does anybody really think that the Bush administration’s reaction to the events of that day would have been somehow more nuanced or restrained had the towers merely been hit by the airplanes and yet the buildings remained standing? What does the evil conspiracy stand to gain by going to the extra trouble of controlled demolition if it simply invites wack-a-doos like yourself to notice the “grade school” physics that were violated in the process?
texas buddha - February 24, 2010 at 4:34 am |
So this means that the people who BELIEVE that an airliner weighing less than 200 tons can TOTALLY destroy a building weighing more than 400,000 tons in less than TWO HOURS and don’t even ask about the distribution of steel in the towers are practicing a
RELIGION!
It’s just like walking on water. Defies the laws of physics. And then you need to be a SCIENTIST to understand that. Do skyscraper have to hold themselves up? Doesn’t that mean more weight has to be supported the further down you go in EVERY SKYSCRAPER? Doesn’t that mean more steel required to increase the strength which increases the weight on that level? So the EXPERTS should have been talking about the distribution of steel by June of 2002 even if the planes did it.
psikeyhackr - March 22, 2010 at 2:56 pm |
So it took you a whole month to come up with that rehash of what you’ve already said a dozen times? Pretty sad, dude. You could save yourself some serious time from here on out and just copy and paste your own comments from now on because you aren’t saying anything new.
let me clue you into something: A real scientist would never build a “model” of the WTC out of paper rings and washers he bought at Home Depot to “prove” 9-11 was an inside job, because a real scientist would know such a model makes him look like a clueless idiot.
Here’s another thing you might want to pass along to your pals in the Truth Movement: Endlessly repeating the same thing over and over again doesn’t make it sound any less stupid. Saying something “defies the laws of physics” or that the building fell at “free fall speed” without ever providing a coherent proof of anything you say just goes to show that you are repeating tired talking points.
You act like people don’t want to hear the obvious truth of things, but really it is more like people don’t want to hear idiotic bullshit from slow-witted, paranoid morons with glaringly obvious agendas.
If any of what you say is true your task is pretty simple. You can prove it in either of two different ways. You can prove how it “defies the laws of physics” for the planes to have caused a fire that weakened the structure enough to cause collapse, or conversely (since you say the planes didn’t do it) you could show proof of what did cause the collapse. You fail to do either of these things. The best you can do is declare the laws of physics have been violated without proving it and when asked how you say you lack the proper data to do the proof. Weak.
So if we are talking cults and religions, and your cult is based on obvious lies and zero evidence of anything, and the other cult is based on actual observations of events from the day… Well, sorry dude but the cult based on observable cause and effect wins out over the cult based on denials of obvious fact and models made out of toilet paper rolls and paper clips.
To summarize, you are a mindless shill for the Truth Movement without a single original thought in your head. Everything you’ve said here is taken from the gospels of 9-11 Truth. You’re a ventriloquist dummy with Alex Jones’ hand stuck up your ass. The only way your shtick gets any more pathetic is if you keep it up for another ten or twenty years. Then it’ll be a fatter, balder version of yourself making proof models of the WTC out of macaroni and Elmer’s glue.
Seriously. Get a life. It doesn’t matter what you or I think happened on that day. Life goes on. Go out and live it.
texas buddha - March 23, 2010 at 3:04 am |
{{{ So it took you a whole month to come up with that rehash of what you’ve already said a dozen times? Pretty sad, dude. You could save yourself some serious time from here on out and just copy and paste your own comments from now on because you aren’t saying anything new. }}}
I am not responsible for you idiotic concept of debating.
Newtonian physics has not changed in 300 years. The automobile industry changing the design of cars when the laws of physics do not change is only stupid planned obsolescence. Skyscrapers must hold themselves up. Talking about an airliner destroying a 400,000+ ton skyscraper without knowing the TONS OF STEEL ON EVERY LEVEL is Total Nonsense.
That will NEVER CHANGE. The people that do not understand simple Newtonian Physics are simply IDIOTS. That will Never Change.
So why can’t you find the total weight of a floor assembly? It is easy to compute the weight of the 205 foot square concrete slab. That is 600 tons though you almost never see that info anywhere. That is easy to calculate. But what was the weight of all of the corrugated pans and 35 and 60 foot trusses? Where is that simple data among all of the talk about pancaking and not pancaking?
The physics stays the same, there is NOTHING TO CHANGE!
psikeyhackr - March 25, 2010 at 1:05 am |
You win.
Your stubborn commitment to a total lack of evidence being proof positive for your still-unarticulated theory as to what actually happened has finally proven to me that you must be onto something or you wouldn’t endlessly repeat unrelated facts with such conviction. You must be right.
You’ve convinced me. Now what?
texas buddha - March 25, 2010 at 5:17 am |
You obviously do not comprehend the concept of eliminating a negative. You only comprehend being told a positive.
Even if I believed that an airliner weighing less than 200 tons could TOTALLY DESTROY a building weighing more than 400,000 tons in less than two hours I would expect to be told the weight of the floor assemblies. Each tower had to hold up more than 80 of them. And the levels that had different floor designs were even heavier.
So the point is even if planes destroyed the towers our engineering schools have done inadequate jobs of explaining it. Real impressive for the nation that put men on the Moon. So get on the cases of the BRILLIANT engineering schools.
psikeyhackr - May 10, 2010 at 10:53 am |
Wait. Let me guess. I think I know where this is going. The moon landings were faked too, right?
Man, you’ve really got it all figured out.
The rest of my reply is a cut and paste from MayoClinic.com. I hope you find it helpful and enlightening. By my count you have exhibited 6 out of the 9 symptoms in your comments. But then I’m counting your repeated comments as your version of “verbal confrontations”. I’ve bolded the symptoms I believe I’ve personally observed in your posts.
Signs and symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia may include:
Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices
Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you
Anxiety
Anger
Aloofness
Violence
Verbal confrontations
Patronizing manner
Suicidal thoughts and behavior
With paranoid schizophrenia, you’re less likely to be affected by mood problems or problems with thinking, concentration and attention. Instead, you’re most affected by what are known as positive symptoms.
Positive symptoms
Positive symptoms are symptoms that indicate the presence of unusual thoughts and perceptions that often involve a loss of contact with reality. Delusions and hallucinations are considered positive symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia.
Delusions. In paranoid schizophrenia, delusions are often focused on the perception that you’re being singled out for harm. Your brain misinterprets experiences and you hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you’re famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you.
Auditory hallucinations. An auditory hallucination is the perception of sound — usually voices — that no one else hears. The sounds may be a single voice or many voices. These voices may talk either to you or to each other. The voices are usually unpleasant. They may give a running critique of what you’re thinking or doing, or they may harass you about real or imagined faults. Voices may also command you to do things that can be harmful to yourself or to others. When you have paranoid schizophrenia, these voices seem real. You may talk to or shout at the voices.
When to see a doctor
If you have any symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia, seek medical help as soon as possible. Paranoid schizophrenia doesn’t get better on its own and may worsen without treatment. However, if you’re like most people with paranoid schizophrenia, you may not recognize that you need help or that you even have symptoms, especially because your delusions or hallucinations are very real to you. Family and friends, or people at work or school, may be the ones who initially suggest you seek help.
Getting treatment from a mental health provider with experience in schizophrenia can help you learn ways to manage your symptoms so that you have the best chance to continue on with a productive and happy life. If you’re reluctant to seek treatment, try to work up the courage to confide in someone, whether it’s a friend or loved one, a health care professional, a faith leader or someone else you trust. They can help you take the first steps to successful treatment.
texas buddha - May 10, 2010 at 11:48 am |
I think you need to get your facts straight. Ususually “TRUTHERS” don’t say they know what happened. They pose questions so people can make up their own mind.
Please wake up. Don’t fence sit.
Speak. - May 20, 2010 at 4:11 am |
Telling people to wake up is a piss poor way of winning converts. I defy you to show me where I said that truthers say they know what happened. On the contrary they mostly claim to know what didn’t happen (the “official story”)… But when you try to pin them down as to what actually did happen, the smart ones will stay away from specifics because they’ve got NOTHING. The dumb ones spout all manner of idiotic science fiction that makes a joke of their cause. Acting like the Truth movement is merely seeking answers is a laugh. The entire thing is agenda driven toward proving that the official story is a hoax and there is some kind of evil conspiracy.
I’m not on the fence. I know from personal observation that 9-11 Truth is an ideological propaganda movement geared more toward politics than facts. I don’t feel the need to join a movement to know what I am supposed to think. I have my own ideas, and brow-beating others into agreeing with me isn’t my idea of an honest strategy toward seeking knowledge. What I have seen of the truth movement doesn’t impress me. I’ve heard no evidence that rises above circumstantial innuendo.
Your comment, like most pro-Truth stuff, offers zero facts and instead implies that disagreement equals ignorance. That, my friend, is fascism of thought. Hence the “group think” in the title of this blog.
texas buddha - May 20, 2010 at 11:15 am |
When you deal with deniers, you are dealing with a circular thinking process that can never go outside the circle. 911Truthers only listen to other 911Truthers, anyone outside the circle is a hack and a liar. The simple truth is that they are incapable of changing their minds and therefore the so-called “movement” will never go anywhere. The correspondence detailed here is the finest example I have yet seen of a sensible person dealing with a Truther nutcase. Thanks for posting this and putting up with this junk. Now I used to be a JFK conspiracy believer until one day I listened to Dave Emory go on for hours (it was ten hours though I didn’t hear it all) about all the conspiracies, on the 30th anniversary of the event. It was plainly obvious that the conspiracies really had nothing to offer, and I started looking at the evidence for real. Gee whiz, I changed my mind! When 9/11 happened I was already doing the news for killradio. Within a couple days we were already hearing fantasies about robot planes, and as soon as the FBI published the names of the hijackers (since they used their real names when they purchased their airline tickets!), right away there were claims that, wow, people with the same names were still alive in the Mideast. I see here in this column people still claiming that the hijackers were still alive! On and on it goes. It has been nice to see how having answers for the 911Deniers claims has weakened the group considerably. They will never go away but they will always be considered pointless and pathetic.
bennett - June 9, 2010 at 5:33 am |